Hawaiian Style and Jazz/Swing on U12?

[Chris Cook]

Thinking about taking the plunge into U12, simply because one has popped up for sale locally.

I have not played steel for about 10 years, but when I did, I had a D10, never used the C6 neck (never figured it out).

Since then, I've gotten a LOT more into functional harmony and jazz harmony away from the steel, so I'm thinking swing might be worth another shot.

I'm also very interested in the "Jerry Byrd Hawaiian Style" sounds.

I'm trying to broaden my vocabulary, away from typical E9/Nashville sounds (which I by no means mastered).

Can I do jazz/swing stuff on a E9/B6 Uni 12 Copedant?
Can I do Hawaiian (almost lap-steel sounding) stuff on a U12?

Or am I better off finding another D10? Or a nice E9 with 5 knees?

(I'm old enough now that I'm not excited about the idea of carrying a D10 around anymore).

Thank you in advance for your wisdom and advice. I've been away from steel for a long time.

[Jim Bloomfield]

I would say go for it. I made the switch about 8 years ago with no regrets. It’s nice to be able to get the different “voicings” on just one neck and switching between them with ease. After learning the B6 side of the Universal I was amazed by how close the two tunings really are yet take on such distinct sounds. You could play anything you want on a Universal. Although the argument could probably be made you can play anything you want on ANY tuning with enough time and practice.
Another nice feature is if you’re playing in a band setting and start getting in over your head while stretching out on the B6 side you can simply let up off the E’s lower knee lever and fall back into your comfortable E9 positions and no one is the wiser!

[Chris Cook]

Jim, please correct me if I'm wrong... but my incomplete understanding of the appeal of all the changes on a C6 is to give me more access to "jazz chords" (Minor7b5, Dom7b9, Aug, Altered etc...) Are all those sounds accessible with the E9/B6 copedant? (Heck... are they even available on a C6?)

If I just wanted to use a RealBook to follow along to a chord chart to simple standards like 'Body & Soul' or 'All the Things You Are' would I be able to find the necessary chords without too much hassle or modifcation to the copedant? Are Minor7b5 and Dom7b9 common grips?

Does a human-readable chart (or YouTube video) exist that can show me the most common chords and grips available on a U12?

I have a hard time looking at a copedant chart and understanding what's under my hands.

[Jim Bloomfield]

I’m not a jazz player by any means but I know how to find jazz sounds. I like to dumb it down the best I can. I don’t know the names of all the jazzier chords but I know what grips and positions work over say a 1, a 5 or whatever. I believe Paul Franklin said something to the affect that he only thinks of chords in terms of Major, Minor, and Dominant ( I hope someone corrects me if this is wrong). Ultimately you can only play 4 notes for a chord unless one is constantly raking/strumming (would be weird). So you may need to figure out how to add that jazz flavor while working within the band using partial chords to get what you’re after.
Monster player Mr. Herb Steiner was kind enough to share some of his material in the link below. It helped me a lot. Most U12s will have all of these pedals except Pedal 4. Some of the knee levers cross over from E9 to B6 depending how the Universal is set up. Hopefully a more knowledgeable player than myself will chime in. Good luck!

https://www.herbsteinermusic.com/C6_essay.pdf

[Bobby D. Jones]

In December of 2017 or 18 I got a good deal on a U12 GFI, Set up Jeff Newman's tuning. With my age, I was to old to drag a D10 around. And there is no demand for swing in our area.
I got so hung up in the 8-9-10-11 addition to the E9th tuning,
I have got my world slowed enough I hope to start seriously working on B6th side on the guitar.
I bought a 12 string Mullen a while back and in the bottom of the case, Was a Jeff Newman B6 lesson book. I hope it will give me more info on the B6th tuning, When I get serious about the B6th tuning.
Happy Steelin.

[Chris Cook]

Thank you both Jim & Bobby for this info.

[Markus Mayerhofer]

Can I do jazz/swing stuff on a E9/B6 Uni 12 Copedant?
Can I do Hawaiian (almost lap-steel sounding) stuff on a U12?

Give Johnny Cox' Universal D-13th tuning a close view - it may be an interesting option for you.
I'm still amazed, how many of the "more advanced" chords can be found here with ease,
some without fancy pedal work, just by engaging some levers.
More than a few of them are available on various spots on the neck as well.
A lot of single note stuff can be done without pedals.
I do not have any C6 or hawaiian lap steel background, but i guess, playing D13 feels a lot like it.

[Chris Cook]

Thank you Marcus.

Another question I have is about learning materials: YouTube didn't exist when I first played the steel. Now there's countless hours of lessons and instruction on there.

Can I apply knowledge from C6 videos to the U12, or will I be wandering in the desert for teaching material.

Can I take advantage of standard C6 (Emmons I guess) copedant instructional videos on the E9/B6 if I just find the same raises and lowers on my guitar and move everything down one fret?

[Slim Heilpern]

Jim, please correct me if I'm wrong... but my incomplete understanding of the appeal of all the changes on a C6 is to give me more access to "jazz chords" (Minor7b5, Dom7b9, Aug, Altered etc...) Are all those sounds accessible with the E9/B6 copedant? (Heck... are they even available on a C6?)
...

Yes, they are. My U12 tuning is almost standard E9/B6 and I've found plenty of ways to play those chords. I use my Detesto chart to find all the variations (explanation and my version of the chart is here (perhaps you'll find it useful): https://slimandpenny.com/static/web/mis ... rn-U12.pdf

Also, if you don't need to play the root (for instance, if you're playing with a bass player) there are many more possibilities using either the E9 or B6 pedals and levers.

The biggest difference between C6 and the B6 side of the U12 is that on a fully loaded C6 there can be more possible voicings then on a typical 7x5 U12 due to the extra knee levers and pedals. But I find there's still plenty to work with on the U12, especially when adding in the standard E9 pedals and levers along with the B6 ones. But be sure that the U12 you pick up supports splits — you'll need 'em!

Hope this helps....

- Slim

[Chris Cook]

Thank you for the PDF.

But be sure that the U12 you pick up supports splits — you'll need 'em!

What do you mean by splits?

The local guitar I found is a Williams.

[Slim Heilpern]

Thank you for the PDF.

But be sure that the U12 you pick up supports splits — you'll need 'em!

What do you mean by splits?

The local guitar I found is a Williams.

Splits allow you to tune the pitch of a string that has both a raise and a lower in effect. e.g. pedal raises E to F# and lever lowers E to Eb. With both engaged you'd probably want to hear an F, not something else in between the two. The split mechanism allows you to tune that F. It can be done with split screws or an extra rod. My Williams came with split screws and slots for them on all twelve strings. I can post a picture for you, but later -- gotta run...

- Slim

[Chris Cook]

Thanks for the clarification Slim.

No pic necessary unless you really have the time. I think I get the gist.

[Slim Heilpern]

Here ya go.... the blue arrow is pointing to the split screw for the 4th string...

IMG_4772.jpg

[Daniel Morris]

Can I apply knowledge from C6 videos to the U12, or will I be wandering in the desert for teaching material.

Can I take advantage of standard C6 (Emmons I guess) copedant instructional videos on the E9/B6 if I just find the same raises and lowers on my guitar and move everything down one fret?

Absolutely, Chris. It's not mind boggling. I never owned a D10, but I have 3 U12 steels.
Consider joining a Patreon page, in particular Doug Jernigan and/or Jody Cameron.
Get Doug's book for chords https://digndoug.square.site/product/c6 ... se&q=false
You may not have every change some jazz players have, but there are often workarounds.
Herby Wallace's daughter sells his material; HWP 200 & 201 are especially helpful. https://www.facebook.com/andrea.wallace.595107
While no copedent is perfect, a U12 can afford some options not found on typical C6 necks.
And don't forget Joe Wright, he of the 'one big tuning' approach that's meant to move away from always thinking of 2 tunings. https://www.pedalsteel.com/

[Chris Cook]

Here ya go.... the blue arrow is pointing to the split screw for the 4th string...

Thank you Slim. This image helps a lot.

Absolutely, Chris. It's not mind boggling. I never owned a D10, but I have 3 U12 steels.
Consider joining a Patreon page, in particular Doug Jernigan and/or Jody Cameron.
Get Doug's book for chords https://digndoug.square.site/product/c6 ... se&q=false
You may not have every change some jazz players have, but there are often workarounds.
Herby Wallace's daughter sells his material; HWP 200 & 201 are especially helpful. https://www.facebook.com/andrea.wallace.595107
While no copedent is perfect, a U12 can afford some options not found on typical C6 necks.
And don't forget Joe Wright, he of the 'one big tuning' approach that's meant to move away from always thinking of 2 tunings. https://www.pedalsteel.com/

Thank you Daniel for all these resources. I'm not gonna lie--every time I'd switch to the C6 neck and have to "re-map" the fretbaord, it was another hurdle I didn't enjoy jumping over. A single neck seems like less work for my aging brain.

And thanks again for all these links.