Tuning straight up 440??

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Jun 2002 5:44 am

CHILDREN, CHILDREN

Play NICE!

Bottom line is that there are top pros who tune by ear which gives something pretty close to Just Intonation. Charleton, Franklin, and others. I was told that Weldon has been tuning straight up ET (or something close) for many years and believe that Hal Rugg, Buddy Emmons, and others do as well. Do you start with A=440 as a reference for the root? Some do, some don't. It's all a compromise. There are reasons for JI (sounds sweeter) and for ET (combinations work better in multiple contexts). I personally prefer something in between, but there are many spots 'in between'. YOU must find what works for YOU, then stop tuning and PLAY.

How you tune open is not nearly as important once the bar hits the strings. Temperature changes that precisely tuned note once the hands hit the strings. We are all making micro-adjustments all the time. There is a feedback loop between the hands and the ears that reminds us where the bar needs to go, whether it needs to be slanted slightly one way or the other, and if a little vibrato is needed to sweeten it up a bit.

If you are a bedroom player, it doesn't matter -- the only person you have to please is yourself. If you are a weekend warrior or even a fulltime pro, you ain't gonna be workin' if the bandleader , band members, or listeners are complaining about your not being in tune. This is a personal choice, just like what kind of guitar to play, what amp to use, and whether to shave this morning.

Why does it have to be one way or the other? We need to discuss these issues in an academic manner and realize that others can disagree and STILL BE RIGHT.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 05 June 2002 at 07:04 AM.]

Douglas Hudson · Post by **Douglas Hudson** » 5 Jun 2002 5:48 am

Does anybody think that different guitars tune differently????

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 5 Jun 2002 5:54 am

Absolutely, Douglas.
One obvious variation from guitar to guitar is detuning -- cabinet drop, axle flex, whatever you perceive causes a string not being pulled to change when others are pulled.

Tuning to a chart is like following a guideline. It puts you in the ballpark, but it won't hit a home run.
Every player should be able to tune by ear, but exactly how you do that can vary. Do you tune the beats totally out? (I don't) How much can your ears tolerate and still sound in tune? These are personal decisions like I mentioned before. If the listener finds what you are doing pleasing, you MUST be doing something right.

Just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Jun 2002 6:33 am

maybe YOU need some ear training devices here.Sorry.

Anyone who has listened to Ricky's recordings knows his intonation is impeccable. Ear-training is the ONLY way to learn intonation. If you don't have an ear, you will play out of tune no matter how you tune the guitar. This is a fact.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 June 2002 at 07:35 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 5 Jun 2002 7:40 am

I agree with Ricky and Jeff. You ears are the instrument to tune. See the device as a recepy for cooking, you tongue decides if it tastes good, not the cookingbook!

( was started with an example of making love, decided to delete that

)
JJ

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 5 Jun 2002 8:10 am

Rick, Jeff, you guys are EXACTLY right. Tuners of any kind are an invaluable aid,but nobody has come up with atuner that is as accurate as the human ear. Just as we should learn to do arithmetic with a pencil and paper before we are introduced to a calculator, we need to HEAR what our instruments sound like,in AND out of tune, before we start fooling with tuners. And, to get off the subject a little bit, has anybody noticed that not all tuners seem to be calibrated the same? I have a Boss TU-12, a Korg(whatever)-20, and a new Sabine 7100 rack tuner--so I can tune three different times! Really makes tuning a bunch of acoustic instruments easy!

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Jun 2002 8:32 am

Just for the record, my quote of Emmons was only to point out that, despite a general philosophy of tuning 440, even he himself makes an adjustment here or there. And as a general thought, when someone (like Ricky) has studied at the hands of monster, universally acclaimed players (like Gary Carpenter and Jim Loessberg), and that person is willing to provide true factual information based on that kind of expertise, then there ought to be a little more weight given to those dissertations that to other less informed writings. Now, if someone tells me that they have personally spent hours and hours and hours playing and discussing steel guitar with Emmons, Franklin, or whomever, and they can articulate the fundamentals and range of nuances of those players, then I wanna hear it. But quoting a single 3-line post from an icon cannot possibly capture the breadth and depth of what that icon knows of a complex steel-related subject. BUT, endless hours of first-hand observation can. That is what I look for. But, heck, what do I know.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 5 Jun 2002 9:47 am

Jeff, I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement ... it appeared to suggest that Mr. Emmons was adjusting his ET tuning to "sweeten" up the 3rds

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I don't believe that this is a 100% accurate statement. BE has said that he does flatten the G#'s to 438, which is roughly 10 cents, I think. He is adjusting the string (3rd's) that is notoriously the worst offender.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But since you saw fit to "correct" my obviously comedic depiction of the whole tuning "Boxing Match" ... I thought it was only justified to explain my choice of ET "Champion..Icon...whatever".

Personally I am in the "Byrd" corner on this topic ... I have every album he has made ... Including "Polyneasian Suite" where he plays with a FULL SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA ... and his tuning methods sure don't seem to conflict with any of the other instruments on that album or any of the other recordings I have ever heard.

Of course he is playin' a non-pedal steel ... but that should not factor in to the equation .. if you are picking a C and E double stop over a C chord .... ???

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 05 June 2002 at 10:48 AM.]

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 5 Jun 2002 11:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Personally I am in the "Byrd" corner on this topic ... I have every album he has made ... Including "Polyneasian Suite"
where he plays with a FULL SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA ... and his tuning methods sure don't seem to conflict with any of the other instruments on that album or any of the other recordings I have ever heard. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because the orchestra plays in Just. The only time they don't is when there is a fixed pitch instrument like a piano, and then they all have to adjust to the piano. Not only does the string section play in Just, but they play accidentals differently depending on the direction of the line. If they are in the key of C, and there is an F# on an ascending passage, they will play it sharper; if it is on a descending passage, they will play it flatter.

Tuners of any kind are an invaluable aid,but nobody has come up with a tuner that is as accurate as the human ear. Just as we should learn to do arithmetic with a pencil and paper before we are introduced to a calculator, we need to HEAR what our instruments sound like,in AND out of tune, before we start fooling with tuners.

For the sake of argument, I agree and disagree. Actually tuners are more accurate than the human ear, for example, tuners can detect 1 cent differences, we at best, can detect 3 cent differences in pitch. I think what you are referring to is intervals, which is a relative tuning thing. I am in complete agreement that we need to HEAR what our instruments sound like in and out of tune.

Earlier I referred to having to watch my tuner while I was recording, and that was because I was playing into a "wash of color". When I'm playing in traditional settings I usually listen/tune to the bass.

The inherant "tuning problem" with steel guitars is because, more often than not, the playing style is diadic scale patterns, lots of 3rds and 6ths, which as we all know are the worst offenders in the Just vs Temper argument.

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 5 Jun 2002 6:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
The only time they don't is when there is a fixed pitch instrument like a piano, and then they all have to adjust to the piano.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"One Bad Apple" ... I say ... throw the bum out

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 5 Jun 2002 7:36 pm

Oooh, what a touchy subject.

It's amazing how so many people can be tuning their guitars wrong!!

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Lee, from South Texas

SveinungL · Post by **SveinungL** » 6 Jun 2002 6:15 am

I never tune the same way twice. It depends on the room, the strings, the music, the sound, my ears, my hands, my instrument etc, etc. As long as it sounds good to me, I play that way. What is that slide for anyway? Shouldn't we be a bit on the edge?

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Thanks Sveinung Lilleheier - Norway
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Kentucky Riders

Damir Besic · Post by **Damir Besic** » 6 Jun 2002 2:25 pm

When you play in the band with the fiddle player who plays out of tune you realize that no matter wich metod YOU use to tune your steel,YOU will be the one to sound out of tune.

Damir

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 8 Jun 2002 12:41 pm

I love to hear the variation in opinions on this subject. One of Larry Bell's comments regarding the piano tuning in Chas Smith's recording session was not really addressed in the answer(which seemed to me to be at the crux of the matter). Did this composer have his 'concert grand' tuned to a strict ET?....it would be worth asking his piano tuner!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 8 Jun 2002 1:08 pm

Yipes !! Ricky wrong...er ..or BE wrong..?? I think they are both right. If we all tuned to 44o straight up I would give the personal gold guarantee that we, as qualified and trained musicians would be all out of tune together at the same time ! I tune basically open 440 then tune the pulls first by 440 then by ear. Then when the band starts it really doesn't matter anymore cause they may start in tune but it goes downhill from there. But at least I try and I do tweak at the breaks, especially the Tele..I think we should have a big meeting on this at St. Louis, and let the best tuner win ! No cussing though...
tp

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 8 Jun 2002 2:02 pm

I think Damir's comment point out an interesting phenomenon.
I've played with guitar players that I've clashed with... and not necessarily that they're out of tune either. When they're soloing and I'm doing pads, I sound out. When I leave him alone and play nothing, he sounds fine. When he leaves me alone, I sound fine.
In any situation, whichever instrument is dominant at the time sounds intonally correct.
The intervals are a subjective thing, I'm convinced. (I know, I know.. "subjectivity".. the reason this forum exists

)
I've also worked with guitarists who are more aware of this, and are dead on all the time. They're rare, it seems.
-John

Chick Donner · Post by **Chick Donner** » 8 Jun 2002 2:42 pm

I guess I'm the one who's missed something in 35 years of playing . . . but, I always DID "tune the beats out" WHEN I COULD HEAR THEM over the band/jukebox/drummer tuning, etc. I guess I'm just pleasantly surprised that after I finally "went electronic" 3 or 4 years or so ago, having bought a Korg DTR-1, that the basic Newman chart "tunes the beat(s) out" on all three of my guitars (2 Emmons PP's and an old ZB). It just makes it much easier to "touch up" while the lead player is doing his thing on the first set, or right after someone opens the door in February.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 8 Jun 2002 6:48 pm

Want to know the truth? It doesn't matter how you tune...as long as you can play it in tune.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 8 Jun 2002 7:12 pm

Did this composer have his 'concert grand' tuned to a strict ET?....it would be worth asking his piano tuner!

These guys get the best that is available.

Want to know the truth? It doesn't matter how you tune...as long as you can play it in tune.

Yup!

After the orchestra strings were recorded, they were talking, in the control room, about how string sections are like a flock of birds flying. It only looks like they all turn at the same time.

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 9 Jun 2002 9:19 am

Although the subject of tuning may have now have been beaten thoroughly to death (and best summed up in the "whatever" comment) my point about the piano tuner was that a really good one can nail that 'subjective' jello to the wall by knowing a pianist's/composer's preference (in beats per second). I was implying that it is unlikely that the piano was tuned to exact ET or it would sound a bit sour in the extremities. The tuner's credentials were not in question - sorry to drag this out.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Jun 2002 12:13 pm

...string sections are like a flock of birds flying. It only looks like they all turn at the same time.

LOL! I never heard that one before.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 12 Jun 2002 6:08 pm

I have always tuned straight up 440. I have never had a problem being out of tune with the band. At 440 your steel is in tune with everyone elso tuned to 440. If you are out of tune after that, you are having a problem with your ear and where you place your bar on the strings. Someone who knows when he is out of tune with everyone else just moves his bar to the point where he is in tune. That is the nice thing about a steel guitar, you can move the bar to the place where it should be.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 12 Jun 2002 9:34 pm

As a mechanic as well as a player, I'll tell ya'........almost every guitar is different as to tuning. I have not stepped on any toes in a while, so I guess I'm due. Again, as a mechanic, I work on all makes of guitars, and due to different reasons, they
ALL have to be tuned differently....temper-wise. Some fabulously named and made guitars I've worked on have had the worst cabinet-drop I've ever seen....thus, compensating in the open & pedal tuning is a must. I won't name names, of course, because I might get another guitar of the same make that is not that bad. Not that bad being 2-2 1/2-3 cents off on the E's. Now, (finally), I'll say flat out....any of you that own a guitar other than a Lashley III that say you don't have at least a 2 cent drop....I want to meet you and your guitar out back anytime. Just kiddin'.......about you, not your guitar.
Given the way these guitars vary, you need to calculate the amount of drop...try pressing your first pedal, and checking your 6th string for example, and then tempering,(or whatever...don't get over technical with me), your tuning to be 'in tune' with all your other strings........I never said this would be a five minute job. If you can hit your first pedal, watch your tuner, check your 6th string and not see a drop.....you're playing a Lashley III, all other guitars will show a drop of some degree.....the same with the first two pedals pressed, you'll see your E's drop to some degree. This is why some tune open to 442....'cause when you press a pedal....it puts you in tune.
Because of the difference in drop from guitar to guitar, I feel it is impossible to lay down a 'standard' for tempering a steel guitar tuning.....most will be close, but given ya'lls exacting standards, there is no standard....I would tune, and listen to the band or recording and then make my adjustments. What we hear from a solo performance and playing with other instruments may be different.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 13 Jun 2002 5:46 am

I'll say flat out....any of you that own a guitar other than a Lashley III that say you don't have at least a 2 cent drop....I want to meet you and your guitar out back anytime. Just kiddin'.......about you, not your guitar.

My Dekley D-12 had about that much drop when it was new 20+ years ago. However I checked it recently and the tuner's needle doesn't move at all, on any string. The strings on it are old, but I guess age has settled everything in.

If you can hit your first pedal, watch your tuner, check your 6th string and not see a drop.....you're playing a Lashley III, all other guitars will show a drop of some degree.....the same with the first two pedals pressed, you'll see your E's drop to some degree.

Neither of those changes alter any other non-pulled strings on my Dekley, and it's the same on both necks!

BTW, The tuners I checked it with are a Korg CA-30 and the built-in tuner in my Boss GX-700.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 13 Jun 2002 6:09 am

I have never sat down to a PSG (except my Fender 400) that did not have cabinet drop until I tried every way I knew how to defeat the LeGrande III. (Which was unsucessful. It simply DOES what it was designed to do!).

I am NOT saying there on no other guitars out there without cabinet drop. I just haven't ever seen one (Fender excluded).

But this I do know. When properly adjusted, the LeGrande III has NONE, zilch, zero! It does however HAVE "cabinet raise", as every steel I have ever sat down to does (Fender excluded). Example: Engage the lever lowering the E's and the 6th string will raise in pitch. This causes a dilemma for me.

Reason: In all the years I played lap steel, I never once had a problem tuning to C6. But with that dang cabinet raise on a PSG, it makes it IMPOSSIBLE for me to tune the B6 tuning to suit my ears. Since the 6th string is raising much than the 5h string the resultant minor chord (strings 4, 5 and 6 E's lowered) is OUT of tune.

Oh well

carl